Naomi Meredith  00:00

Have you ever felt stuck or overwhelmed when it comes to lesson planning, specifically project based learning? It's a lot of work, and I know this based on my experience as a classroom teacher and K through five STEM teacher and coach. It takes a lot of time and careful planning to create these meaningful experiences for students. I had a great conversation with Jeff Imrich, the co-founder of Rock by Rock. We were definitely on the same wavelength and had a meaningful conversation as to what learning can look like in STEM and engagement in the classroom and beyond. Jeff is a former teacher and has spent his career teaching kids and partnering with teachers and parents to rethink how we design schools and support teacher professional development around the country. He believes deeply that teachers are the key to student success, their jobs are huge, and they need better support to make their job easier and more enjoyable. Jeff and his co-founder created Rock by Rock to empower teachers with the tools they need to do real-world projects without starting from scratch. Their platform provides fully planned projects with a real-world mission, diverse virtual experts, rich information texts, videos, games, and a culminating project that empowers kids to help make a change in the world. There are a lot of key points in this interview that I am sure you're going to resonate with, and the mission of Rock by Rock is one that definitely aligns with my STEM philosophy in the classroom. I can't wait for you to listen. 

Naomi Meredith  01:56

Thank you, Jeff, so much for being here. Today. We were chatting a bit before, and I could already tell this is gonna be a very fun interview. You have a lot of great stuff that our audience is going to be excited about. We have mainly STEM teachers who listen, but I know we have a lot of classroom teachers who are here or ones who might be interested in teaching STEM or just teachers who want to learn more about it. So I'm just really excited to have you today. So if you wouldn't mind, tell us about yourself, your teaching background, and also about Rock by Rock and its mission. So it's a whole thing you're telling us about.

Jeff Imrich  02:30

All right, awesome. Well, first, Naomi, I'm super excited to be here to talk with you today. Thank you so much for having me on your podcast, just the experience I'm getting today has been amazing. So I'm excited for our conversation. I started out as a teacher. I've taught first through seventh grade and sort of in various settings. For the last six or seven years, I've been working with teachers, parents, kids, and schools to try and think about how we could redesign schools to help more kids get to and through college and have access to career pathways. What would we do a building like on all of the lessons we've learned? One of the biggest takeaways and this is not going to be surprising for you, is that when kids are doing real-world authentic projects, and they realize their learning has a purpose, it's like the air is electric. It's like this magical feeling. You walk into a classroom, and you're like, Yes, right? This is what learning should be like. In the schools and programs that we, my co-founder and I, were working on, we heard a lot from our teachers about how our kids loved learning this way. We love teaching this way. It's just really hard planning this type of project, like a deeper learning, project-based learning, a project with speakers, a Take Action Project, and all of these different resources. It's like really hard to plan from scratch. We thought, gosh, like, there's gotta be a way to make this easier for folks. Like, can we provide a toolkit that gives teachers a leg up? We empower them with a set of resources that they can use to do real-world, project based learning in their classroom, that like, just makes it easier so that any kid and any teacher can do this type of learning, and that's why we started Rock by Rock. I can tell you a little bit more about what it is and what we offer. But that's kind of the story behind it.

Naomi Meredith  02:31

I'm really excited about that because I think you're absolutely right. The questions that I get asked the most, even before I started this podcast, all have to do with lesson planning. I'm really big on having more meaningful projects so let's just play with robots today and do some random building. I think it can be more purposeful and still be really fun. So I'm excited to hear more about it and just give teachers another option because we're so busy. It doesn't matter what you teach, and you know, you taught everything, and you don't have time to do all of that, or you might not even have the resources or even know the right people. Like if you're lucky, you know someone who does this, or maybe they're not even good at presenting, like that can happen too, so I'm really excited you have it all packaged up and all ready to go, which teachers really love.

Jeff Imrich  05:09

Yeah, and I mean that resonates 100% with my own experience. It's like 10 o'clock, and you're like, What am I doing tomorrow for this hour of the day, and you're like googling to try and find something, you're like, oh, Does this meet the good enough bar? I think so, like, I'm gonna give it a shot. Then you go into class, and you're just crossing your fingers, this is gonna work. So our projects are all anchored around empowering kids to solve real-world problems. They're aligned with national science standards. So kids are learning science content, and they're practicing reading, writing, listening, and speaking skills through the project. Each project also has a social-emotional anchor. So empathy, curiosity, creativity, courage, kinship, impact awareness, and the way the projects are set up is that there's standard PBL, right? Because we didn't invent project based learning, we're just trying to make it easier. There's a driving question. So how can we help prevent traumatic brain injury from bicycle accidents? How can we help improve rainforest conservation? What are the pros and cons of video gaming? How can we raise awareness about that? So each project gives kids a challenge. They grapple with content, both online and offline. So we have online learning and hands-on and the online component includes video, interactive video, and interactive games, and every project has an anchor text. So there's an informational text that kids are reading to learn more about the topic, and then they go offline, and they do experiments, make mini projects and sort of either explore phenomena or process what they're learning, and that's to understand, like the mission and the core content. Then when they're done with that, they do something to take action, and that might be a graphic design campaign, a letter to Congress, a podcast, a public service, a video, or a mural. So each project comes with all those resources, and the last thing I'd say is that our third through fifth-grade projects, projects also feature virtual experts. So when kids are learning about the brain, they're learning from neuroscientist Dr. Jones. When kids are learning how to make a graphic design, they're learning from graphic designer Maurice Jerry. You're getting sort of the experience of having the expert come to your classroom without having to find that expert. Now, if you've got another expert in your community, by all means, bring them in. But it's a starting point. So that's sort of how our projects are set up. It's also a library because we want teachers to pick the content they need, so what are your standards? What are your students' needs? What are your student interests? Which project is going to be right for you at what time of the year? We really want this to be giving you a lift, and we're trying to set it up in a way that you, as the teacher, are in the driver's seat about making choices about when, where, and how to use it.

Naomi Meredith  07:44

I love how you have the questions written too. You have them as how can we, so it's not like, can you solve this, like, I feel like you have it more open-ended because you're not eliminating it to one solution. I can tell you want kids to think of multiple solutions to solve the problem. That's really project based learning. Like there's not one answer to this. They might not ever find the answer. It might not even work, but they're thinking about it. These sound like questions kids would actually care about because you want them to be really, in a way, you do want it to be obscure to pique their interest. They might not even have any background knowledge, which is even better sometimes because they're more engaged in finding out the answers. So I like how you have all the use of like multimedia, text, videos, and hands-on digital because that's how we as adults learn. We learn using all of this stuff. So you're doing stuff that kids need to know how to do.

Jeff Imrich  08:37

Yeah, I'm so glad you zeroed in on that because that's exactly it. When you look at it, take you and your podcast, right? You are a creator, you are a teacher, you are a content creator, you have a podcast, and you run a business, that's what life is like today, right? Projects give kids the chance to build those skills in an authentic way. You're 100%, right? Like, we really want kids to grapple with the nuance. There are a lot of gray areas in life, and there are pros and cons and reasons to do something and reasons not to do something. We want you to grapple with that, and maybe you have the answer, and maybe you don't. But the process of like going through that process of trying to understand, seeking to learn, and asking questions, that's where the real learning happens.

Naomi Meredith  09:21

Yeah, it's so funny because I just had a guest a little bit ago, and she was talking about SEL and STEM, and she mentioned the same things that you're talking about, which is good. That means this is what we need to be doing, working on those soft skills. You have this project, and it is an avenue into those life skills. That's so nice for teachers too. They can pick and choose what works for them. So maybe they're a STEM teacher, and they know in the classroom with their homeroom teacher, they're going to be working on a specific topic like animal habitats, and then they could do the rainforest one in STEM, so they're not exactly repeating what's done in the regular classroom, but they're extending it in a different project based learning way, which it is like you said, it's hard to. I've done training like being trained on project based learning, and that was just when I was a third-grade teacher, and it takes a long time to make it good. And it does, it's not always good like yours was done.

Jeff Imrich  10:15

It's true, you're singing our song, like, I love the way you're thinking about this because what you're describing is exactly what we want teachers to be able to do, right? Like, oh, we're working in a team, I'm going to work on this, you're going to work on that. Now, all of a sudden, there's coherence across different sections of our day. We even have teachers who have a morning meeting. So we have some teachers who say, oh, this project has a focus on empathy. Empathy is also going to be the hook for our community circle for the next three weeks. That way, as you're going through, you know, when you revisit parts of it, and ELA or parts of it, and STEM, you can also make connections back to the discussions you had in morning meetings. So there are lots of ways that you can actually make this come alive if you've got a springboard instead of, you know, trying to plan everything out.

Naomi Meredith  11:01

Yeah, and it shouldn't be isolated. That's like one thing, if I were to go back to the general education classroom, is just having more of those experiences because there's definitely a place for it and helps with behavior too. Even your hardest kids, they can get so into it, and they can really shine. You're just like triggering talents that you might not know they had or interests you didn't know they had. So it's just really good to do this. You don't have to do it for every single subject, but you can. It's just good to be doing this, and you want to be engaging with the kids. So you need those engaging materials. With those lessons, do you have an example lesson? So you've kind of mentioned specific topics, but like zoning in on examples of lessons that teachers could try using Rock by Rock?

Jeff Imrich  11:45

Yeah, that's a great question. I want to just respond to something you just said, I'm gonna answer your question. Yes. I feel like we're having this, like cross-country mind meld in the way you're describing things. Because when we talk to our teachers, that's what we hear, right? Like, if my kids are on fire and motivated, I'm seeing stronger evidence in their writing because they care about what they're writing about. But also, I'm making fewer phone calls home because the kids are like really engaged in what we're doing. We've also heard exactly what you said from some teachers who say, Oh, you know, I have a heterogeneous group of kids who are seeing different strengths that they don't normally have a chance to bring to the table. It's like they're developing this new mutual appreciation for each other. Because it's like, oh, I didn't know you were so good at that. The other students were like, well, you know, I also haven't had a chance to shine in that way. So it really is impacting motivation and classroom culture on lots of levels. So I'm really glad that you mentioned that. Okay, to answer your question, though, resources, yes. So we have a free trial on our site, and you can sign up for the free trial. That gives you access to the entire library. In the library, there are two ways to access the content. So there are the full projects, right? So you could say like, oh, I want to try part of the full project out, so I want to look at it. You might do the whole thing, or you might try a couple of the lessons in that you can sort of decide. We also have what we call our mix-and-match library. So as I was describing the projects, I was mentioning components, like there's a text, and we call it the zine. There's the virtual field component with the expert. There's the Take Action Project, like the podcast or the mural, which is broken into chunks in our library. So if you said, you know, I already have a project, like we do a food deserts project every year, and I love it. But I would like a way for my kids to have higher quality output from that project. So I'm going to use your podcasting module, which I should, you know, get tips from you someday. Or I'm going to use your module. So you can sort of pick and choose, or you might say, Hey, we're already doing a unit on forces in motion. But I'd like a way to make it more relevant. So I'm going to integrate, I'm going to use the Save Our Brains text as a piece of reading in my class, we might not go full on and do the Save the Brains project yet. But that's like an entry point. So those are sort of the two different ways you can try things out.

Naomi Meredith  14:13

Oh, that's so cool and very helpful. I feel like teachers have different strengths when it comes to planning. My favorite part is finding the resources, which I know are not other people's favorites, but I like them. But sometimes, it's hard to think of what the output will be, what type of project, and just get that inspiration. So that's really nice that you can mix and match. You're like, oh, I never thought about teaching podcasting this way. Like maybe you have done it in the past. But then, like using a different resource, you see it through a different lens. Oh, I never thought about it that way. Because oftentimes, I mean, I'm an island, I teach by myself, I don't necessarily have a team, and sometimes it can happen with classroom teachers. Maybe you're one who really wants to try something exciting, and you're looking for resources, and your team's not really on board. So that's really nice that you have that option. Teachers can go full-on out or just pick and choose what they want. That's so teacher centered, for sure. That is so great.

Jeff Imrich  15:13

Yeah. Well, I would like to say, like, I'm glad this is resonating. I've been on the receiving end and involved in scripted curricula where you get something, and it's like, you need to be on this at this minute, this at that minute, or you have 30 minutes to teach, but a 50-page lesson plan, and you're just like, what, right? So we really thought about how we put teachers in the driver's seat. We develop this with teachers to figure out how they are using it. How can this be more helpful, there's a lot of curriculum that gives you lift, but there's also a lot of curriculum that bogs you down, and we don't want to be something to bog you down. 

Naomi Meredith  15:46

Yeah, I was thinking of the science curriculums I've had in the past. What's sad, too, is when I was teaching third grade, we had a certain curriculum, and they wouldn't even buy us the updated version. So we had all this stuff, and we had to teach the new standards with the old curriculum. It was boring, and we had to find things anyway. Then some teachers don't like teaching science because, like, it's boring. Well, it's actually not boring. But it's just nice just to have it all together, it's updated, and you have worked with teachers, which not a lot of curriculums are like that, either. They don't see the feedback. So that's really good to hear. I'm sure you guys update things based on the feedback that you get, just knowing how things are working out. Or you might have more examples. So that's really good that you're thinking about us teachers.

Jeff Imrich  16:35

Yeah, that's 100%. Right? Like, we want feedback from folks, right? We want to know what's working, we want to know how you're using it. We want to hear your success stories, we want to be able to broadcast them to other people, and we want to know what we can do to make it better, but we're also planning on growing the library over time. One of our lists, Save Our Brains projects I described, we develop because one of our teachers' portraits in Alabama was like, I'm having a really hard time teaching this. And we're like, Okay, well, let's talk about this, what would this look like? That sort of came out of that conversation about something that was hard in the classroom. We see ourselves on a learning journey, right, like, we want as many people as possible to be on that journey with us, so this is a helpful tool.

Naomi Meredith  17:15

Oh, it sounds like it. I'm very excited about it, and I can't wait to check out all the resources and just not have to feel stuck. Knowing that it's there at your fingertips and to see what will work best, I mean, some units are way more fun than others. So it's just great to have that option. Is there a favorite project you have in mind when you're thinking about primary or secondary? Or are there ones that have been super popular with teachers that they've absolutely loved? You mentioned a few, but more specific.

Jeff Imrich  17:45

Yeah, it's a really good question. All the projects have been a labor of love, so it feels a little bit hard to like and pick a favorite. But I will say that a couple of the ones that are being used right now in the fall, like there were teachers are using, and I don't know if this is the time of year how things align with the scope and sequence. This is the thing kids are most interested in, these are things we're trying to learn more about. We have an invasive species project, which aligns with a bunch of ecosystem standards. The debate question for that is, is it justified to kill one species to save another?

Naomi Meredith  18:17

Ooh, that's a great question. 

Jeff Imrich  18:20

Thanks. So we've gotten some good feedback about the type of discussion kids have been having with that question. So we sort of take the lens of invasive pythons in Florida. Also, kids are just fast. Who's not fascinated by a video of a Python wrestling an alligator in the Everglades? So that's one that we've got a bunch of feedback on, link that in the show notes. Yeah, exactly. Yes, exactly. We'll link that one in the show notes. Our save the rainforest project also has been pretty popular because I think kids really like learning about the rainforest. It's just a fascinating ecosystem. That's been something folks have been really interested in, and the Save Our brains project. I think for k-two, we've heard a lot from folks about the Save the frogs project. I think frogs are a common species to study. So we've heard a lot about, we've got some photos back of the habitats that kids have designed for their frog habitats and things like that. So that's been pretty popular. The last one, I'll say, as we have a cashew project called ugly foods and hungry people, which looks at the standards related to the lifecycle of plants, how we grow food, and sustainability. But it also looks at how much food we waste as a country and ways that we could kind of think differently about how we approach food, especially given how many folks are hungry. We just heard recently from a school where all of the kids in K-2 are doing the ugly food-hungry project. Then they're doing a shared table in the cafeteria where all the kids are designing a shared table where any food they're not going to eat from lunch they can put on the table, and any student can go get from the table. So there's no stigma about, like, I'm going to get like extra food or anything. It's just a communal space for sharing. That was just really cool to hear because all of the teachers came together, and they said this is something we want to do in partnership as a community. And we're like, Yes, right? This is what we want to enable right now, where our program is to say you should do a shared table. But they were like, this is what's right for our community. And we're like, I love it. It's great. 

Naomi Meredith  20:08

That's real project based learning. That's what is relevant to a real audience. Because sometimes, with projects, kids are like, Well, why are we doing this, but that's real. Like they're, it's beyond the curriculum. It's something they're remembering that lesson, the reason and the why. That is like what we always hope for when we don't always know how to get there. What's awesome about your guys' stuff is that it's just like a jumping off point for even more lifelong learning and just applying all those skills to their little worlds, and kids love animals. I will say anytime I do anything with animals, they're literally obsessed. You can't go wrong with animals. I love animals. So that's probably why I like it too.

Jeff Imrich  20:44

What's your favorite animal? 

Naomi Meredith  20:45

Oh, my dog, for sure. But besides my dog, and I'm obsessed with my dog, I love sea lions because they're wet puppies of the ocean.

Jeff Imrich  20:55

Oh, I love that. I haven't heard them described like that before. But that makes perfect sense. I think that's great.

Naomi Meredith  21:01

Yeah, at SeaWorld, they like to do all the tricks. All the rejected ones really still try to do tricks, the ones who are in the show. So you can like throw them little treats and like clap their fins and flippers, or they're so cute.

Jeff Imrich  21:13

I love it. That's awesome. 

Naomi Meredith  21:15

Well, I appreciate all of the information. You told us about the free trial. Are there any other resources or things you want teachers to know about created by Rock by Rock? And then how can they find you guys?

Jeff Imrich  21:26

Yeah, so a couple of other things that we want folks to know is project based learning can be materials intensive. So we try and make sure that the materials are as off the shelf as they can be easily accessible or affordable. So that it's not a huge lift, working with a whole bunch of STEM teachers who are on carts. And that can also be tricky. So in some of our teachers' guides, we try to provide tips like, hey, if you're pushing in for STEM, here are some things you might think about or some things you might try. I know STEM teachers on carts are some of the most innovative people because you just have to figure out how to manage stuff and space really well to do that job. So we also try and keep in mind who are the different users and how we can make sure this is going to work for them. We do try and make sure that the materials are accessible. We also want to have a diverse set of experts. So we really try and prioritize finding a balance of gender, race, age, and geography because we want to make sure that kids see themselves in the curriculum. So those are two other things I would highlight. You can find us at Rockbyrock.com. We're also on Facebook and Instagram. On our website, there's a support email address, support@rockbyrock.com. And we're, you know, game to answer any questions that you got. So you sign up for a free trial, and if you've got questions, email us. You're thinking about a free trial, but if you have questions, email us. You do the project with your class, and you'd love to do it with your school, email us, right? Don't be a stranger, hearing from teachers is one of our favorite things.

Naomi Meredith  22:56

That's so great. I know people are going to be reaching out for sure. All of that will be linked in the show notes. So if you're driving in the car, you don't have to write that all down. It'll be accessible for you along with the Python wrestling the alligator, we will link that too. I appreciate your time so much. I feel like we've like met before. We're just like totally on the same page, which is so reassuring, too, that I'm not going crazy when I'm talking into a microphone by myself. It's so nice to have guests. I could talk about this all day. But I appreciate your time so much. I'm sure you will be hearing from some of our audience. Thank you.

Jeff Imrich  23:33

Thank you, and it was great talking. It's so nice to connect with folks when you're like, Ah, we're on the same wavelength about what we want to be true for children and for teachers. So thank you, and this was great.